The winter was closing in fast and the ship was now in danger of getting stuck in the ice. How do you solve a crisis in the middle of an intense leadership expedition? You turn over the decision to the women, the passengers, to vote. Not just any vote, a blind vote. Yes, or No? Go out into the Southern Ocean, with weather coming in, to complete this journey? Sometimes the most uncomfortable lessons are where you learn the most. To learn more about this series, join the newsletter at: https://www.thisisourtimepodcast.com/audio-love
Fabian: So I’m wondering if having listened to what you heard. You can just trust us to have heard all the issues, and we will take this into consideration. I’m going to ask you all to close your eyes….
*Footsteps walking upstairs, then into faculty meeting*
*Door closing*
Merryn: She is downstairs, basically having a full-blown panic attack. She has left in tears.
*footsteps walking back into the room*
Fabian: Ok. So, I need to tell you a bit of a story, and then it’s a lead-in to the decision. Shhh.
There’s a part of me that loves adventures. In my family, if somebody’s going to do something crazy and take a risk, it’s probably going to be me.
WAS IT DEMOCRACY OR PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION? [12:55]
Sarah H: Well, I’m not a political scientist, but there are a lot of different ways of doing democracy, aren’t there. That didn’t strike me as a democracy to me, what happened, but-
THE TEND AND BEFRIEND THEORY [14:56]
Sam: This turning point marked the halfway mark of the journey. Half done, half to go. But the question that lingered was: How was this moment going to change the experience?
Back in the 1920s, groundbreaking research in psychology began, and the American psychologist Walter B Cannon published a very important paper where he identified the human response to stress. His paper gave us a phrase we all know: Fight or Flight.
And this was gospel. For about 70 years, most of the subsequent research confirmed his results.
But then, in the 1990s, a different psychologist unwrapped these old ideas. She took a different approach...her name is Shelley E Taylor, and when she analyzed these old studies, she realized something was missing.
There were no women who worked as researchers, and in fact, most of the rats used in the studies were also male.
She wondered. If she were to remount these same experiments, but this time included females, could there be a different result?
And in fact, there was.
Shelly E Taylor published her work in the year 2000. Her research confirmed the third way, an alternative reaction to stress, and she called it Tend and Befriend.
This means that when some of these rats faced stress, they cared for each other instead of fighting. Instead of fleeing, they put the needs of others before their own.
THE EMOTIONAL DECISION NOT TO GOT TO ROTHERA [20:04]
This episode was written, hosted and produced by me, Samantha Hodder.
Sound mix by Kristie Chan
Original music by Podington Bear
Original Theme song by Gabriel Corindia
For this episode, I’d like the thank:
Dr. Adriana Humans
Dr. Susan Scott
Dr. Merryn Mckinnon
Marshall Cowley
Valerie Sage
Nina Earl
Tune in next week for the final episode of this series.
And if you’re not already receiving our newsletter, please head to the bottom of the page and subscribe, and then I’ll send you one minute of audio love each week.
Thanks for listening.
I’m Samantha Hodder, and This is Our Time.
Fabian: So I’m wondering if having listened to what you heard. You can just trust us to have heard all the issues, and we will take this into consideration. I’m going to ask you all to close your eyes….
Adriana: I don’t like voting while having my eyes closed.
Fabian: It has to be a blind vote so that anyone’s vote does not prejudice you. It’s a private vote. See, my concern about that is that we’re isolating people who don’t want to go and become visible. In a blind vote, the leadership takes responsibility, see what the distribution is, and we will come back to you with a decision based on what we see. I don’t want to isolate anyone who doesn’t want to go.
I genuinely believe I would like to do a blind vote. Then the leadership team wisely makes a response, that’s our job, to come back to you. Trust us. You will lose nothing either way.
It will be a stunning experience if we don’t go.
And It will be a stunning experience if we do go.
So can you trust us on this? We’ve not let you down so far.
Susan: Will we know tonight, though?
Fabian: Yes, we’ll know in a very short period of time. I’d like to close it down. So I’m going to ask you to close it down, shhh.
Sam: Well, you’ve made it to the fourth episode….and thank you for sticking with this story... yes, I’ve been dragging out the suspense of this vote as long as humanly possible. This vote was that experience that you have that feels like it was a week, when in fact, it was only a few hours.
But those moments that get to hold all the learning in one place don’t operate under the usual rules of time and space.
Next week will be the last episode of this series, and I have a special favour to ask: If you’ve enjoyed listening, please share it with a friend. That is the single best way that you can support this show. Thanks for listening, now let’s get back to the ship.
Fabian: So we are simply going to say, I’ll do a show of hands, who would like to go, and then a show of hands who would prefer not to go.
Are you all ok with that? Does it seem fair? Can I check with those who are feeling uncomfortable. Ok, close your eyes.
Can those in favour of going put their hands up. Hand down.
Can those in favour NOT going put their hands up. Hands down. Beautiful. Hands down.
Eyes open. Give yourself a round of applause.
*clapping*
We will be back here in 10 minutes.
Sam: It was time to take all these thoughts into consideration, so the faculty went upstairs to discuss the vote.
And I’m the fly on the wall.
*Footsteps walking upstairs, then into faculty meeting*
*Door closing*
Merryn: She is downstairs, basically having a full-blown panic attack. She has left in tears.
Kerryn: Yeah, I’m got someone looking after her, and I’m going down.
Fabian: Great leadership moment
Justine: Would you do it? Do you think it was a good thing to do?
Fabian: No, fuck, no. But let’s face it, we were stuck here not making a clean decision.
Greg Mortimer: Yeah. Clearway forward.
Sarah: Greg said it would be a shit fight.
Justine: And it’s still a shit fight going on.
Greg: There were 8 people who didn’t want to go.
Justine: I counted 10.
Fabian: I counted 8.
Merryn: Well, 11 downstairs then, or 9, depending on whose count you take.
Fabian: So my inclination is not to go.
Sarah: Why?
Fabian: Because that’s 10 percent of the whole. You care for the whole. Women are happier when you care for the whole. An even though I really really want to go, and many people do, let’s keep people calm and joyful, and explain that. What are the rest of you? We all need to vote now.
Justine: So I think what was really the most powerful for me was the women who said: I will not vote for myself because for me, this is a collective. So their point was if I know someone’s unhappy...Then when they started, there was a lot of muttering at the back. And lots of concern: I can’t vote because I’m going to be fine, but she’s having an anxiety attack.
Marshall: Look, we are here... I’ve never seen anything like this. It’s really amazing.
Fabian: It’s really amazing, and I really want to go to fucking Rothera, but no.
Justine: Actually, I do want to go to Rothera now that I’m thinking about it.
*laughing*
Marshall: I think that the genuine thing we need to address is what Paola spoke for people, that sense of adventure. Take it on, come on, we’re leaders. But disappointing them versus putting other people in an uncomfortable space, I think I would favour that.
Justine: Can you frame it? Can you explain this process?
Fabian: Yeah, I can. And I think I can...and now I put it on myself, I say, you know what, I’m really disappointed. But, still, I love the whole of us in my heart of hearts, and I couldn’t decide with all consciousness, and I think many of us would feel this way, do something that I wanted to do if it made some people in this group unhappy. I want us all to be happy. So what we are going to do is really focus on the program ahead.
Greg: The risk of it being a divisive issue is high, so bringing that back around is...
Fabian: To the love and collaboration.
Greg: And I think with the passage of time, you know, six months time, they may be thinking, dang, didn’t get to Rothera.
Fabian: It’s a great leadership lesson, though...it’s a leadership moment
Greg: But I think that will fade into the whole experience
Mary-Anne: I think it was a dangerous experiment. I think it backfired, big time. And I think there’s going to be a backlash...there is, I’ve already just heard the conversations about it. There’s going to be 65 people versus 10. Even though it’s blind. I’m not saying that’s how it’s going to play out, but those are the numbers. And maybe it’s a valuable learning experience, but I think it’s eroded some of the good vibes in the group.
Kerryn: I feel disappointed that a decision was made on behalf of the leadership team…without us actually agreeing to this decision. We can’t undo that, but I want to express that.
Fabian: Yup. It’s well expressed.
Marshall: I’ll be fair, I abdicated my decision, I walked out on this one.
Fabian: Yes, everybody walked out, and it was Mary-Anne, Greg and myself and Juz here.
Merryn: Sorry, I left with the understanding that we weren’t putting it open. I thought that we were going to defer to Greg’s knowledge on this one, and his last words that I heard were, “it put too much pressure on the program.”
Sarah: And we said we weren’t going to-
Fabian: No, there was a change after that, when the Captain said we could go out around out tonight
Merryn: Right.
Greg: He shifted the goalposts, unfortunately. At the risk of throwing something completely, my third option before was we go out and have a look, and if it feels too rough, we come back.
Justine: No, it’s too unsettled now. We need to go and solve this.
Fabian: Just to be clear to everyone, it’s not bad to have an unsettling experience. Sometimes they are the defining moments in leadership. It’s how we deal with it that is the measure of our leadership. Or indeed that a mistake has been made, least of all should we do that to each other. It’s ok.
Sarah: I don’t think it was a mistake. We tried it because we thought it was important to empower them with some of the decisions. It didn’t go as we expected.
Fabian: We’ve learned something.
Justine: And the people who stood up and said they were nervous, they were sitting there muttering amongst themselves….so they still needed, the people who spoke up, actually, it was quite a big deal for them.
Sarah: Acknowledge that.
Marshall: yeah
(Many): Yeah, yeah.
Samantha Hodder walking with the mic - photo credit Oli Sansom
Merryn: I think it’s probably, I will support the team no matter what, and I’m sure with the framing, you’re experts. You know what you’re doing. But I think we need to be aware of a perception that maybe it was a token demographic process, and we’ve said: “We’ll leave the decision up to you, and now we’re going to override it.” So I just think we need to be aware of that, as in the majority vote.
Justine: I just got told voting is not necessarily always the only democratic way that... there are a few other ways you could do it so that the vote was seen as a bit... But I think we focus on the decision now.
Marshall: And tomorrow, in Open Frame, we’ll talk about all that.
Sam: almost 10 minutes
Marshall: Let’s wrap this up.
Justine: Ok, time!
Marshall: Yes, let’s go down, folks.
Fabian: Does Greg need more time here? He’s only done this 80 times. But we did get stuck….yes he did, but we all agreed to it.
*footsteps walking back into the room*
Fabian: Ok. So, I need to tell you a bit of a story, and then it’s a lead-in to the decision. Shhh.
There’s a part of me that loves adventures. In my family, if somebody’s going to do something crazy and take a risk, it’s probably going to be me.
But I love my sons and love my husband, and my husband is more likely to be the wiser, reasoning voice in our family, saying that not all members necessarily want to do what you’re proposing.
And I think in my heart of hearts, and I think most of us will agree with this, that if enough people just don’t want to do this, then we don’t do it.
And I think that it’s really really important that you all focus with your whole heart, on being in blue.
Because the easiest thing we could do is we would have sidebar conversations,
But I think we all feel, and maybe it shouldn’t be a discussion with everybody, and maybe if it’s hadn’t been a discussion with everybody, we would be chugging our way on to Rothera.
And instead, we’ve made the decision not to go. Because I can’t bear, personally, as the person responsible overarching for the project, there would be a group of unhappy people. I would find that miserable. And I would rather we were all happy.
So that’s the team’s decision, with love for everybody. Does that make sense to you all?
Hands up who see the wisdom in that. Hands up that you wish it was otherwise? Yeah, I get it. Me too. But you know what. That’s what we do. We hold the Whole. And another time, another place. But we promise what you’re going to experience will be wonderful.
So can I just make a recommendation, save your thoughts and observations for what we do for the morning. The bigger conversation and the bigger wisdom in the room is how we behave with each other as constructive leaders. I’m sure the moment we walked out, there were pockets of conversations.
Now is the time, because we have created such high trust on this ship, and such a collaboration, that the focus tonight is reaching out to other people who have different perspectives. You know we walked away with the clear perspective that Fern provided into this space.
And I really think it’s time for us to focus on relaxing, enjoying ourselves, reaching out to each other, and ensuring we stay in blue and honour our guide rules.
And I’d also say that those that had the courage to say they didn’t want to go, that is a respected courage. And it should be a respected courage, by everyone.
You can’t cross a difficult moment if you don’t take everyone with you.
That’s what makes women great as leaders. Some leaders in our world are perfectly happy to charge forward, but they look around, and no one is following. That’s not great leadership, from our perspective.
So for now, just relax, enjoy yourselves, concentrate on looking after each other and using this as one of those defining moments.
And in the morning in Open Frame, we will take all questions.
So go enjoy the night now and reach out to each other, and we will pick up Open Frame in the morning.
Sam: Well, it turns out that side-bar conversations were just a bit a little bit too irresistible.
A view of the ice from the top deck - photo credit Oli Sansom
Sarah H: Well, I’m not a political scientist, but there are a lot of different ways of doing democracy, aren’t there. That didn’t strike me as a democracy to me, what happened, but-
Amal-Lee: Democracy means the majority wins, as I said, if only we could do the same with Brexit. That would be marvellous. Proportional representation - then we wouldn’t have Brexit
Valerie: Yeah, and Trump wouldn’t be there. That would have been a good thing.
Sarah: Well, there’s Proportional voting, isn't there? And I suppose that they must have decided as to the number of people, represented enough people that the level of discomfort was beyond the acceptable threshold.
Amal-lee: What she implied was that even if one person was really really uncomfortable, then we as a collective would not-
Valerie: That’s not what I understood.
Sarah H: Well, what was said, Sam, you were there….
Sam: I’m the mute behind the microphone. I am the neutral observer in all of this. It’s actually fascinating not to have an opinion and just take it all in.
Sarah H: I’m pretty sure most people wanted to go, taking the mood of the room.
Valerie: No, I wanted to go, I wanted to go too.
Amal-Lee: She said we're going with the fact that some people, she didn’t say the numbers, but she basically said, we’re going with the fact that we want everyone to be comfortable. But as I said to Fabian, if you know, for future reference, maybe next year, if this same decision comes up. Don’t bring this into this format. Because it created anxiety when it wasn’t warranted.
Nina Earl on the ice in Antarctica - photo credit Oli Sansom
Sam: This turning point marked the halfway mark of the journey. Half done, half to go. But the question that lingered was: How was this moment going to change the experience?
We were facing a crisis. One that was both obvious, getting stuck in the ice. Hard to see, the emotional danger of fear and anxiety, and uncharted: new experience here for everyone, including the crew.
And it could have gone ugly. It could have led to breakdown and mutiny. But it didn’t.
This group had faced an intense amount of stress. Were we ever in danger? Sometimes I’ve wondered this.
To be clear, the ship never put our physical safety at risk, but that doesn’t mean that they didn’t take any risks. They took many risks. These sailors wanted to get to Rothera, too, maybe even more than us.
But the physical risk doesn’t account for all of it. Mental health is also a big part of the picture. And events like this, with all that stress, triggers an emotional response, which was deeply amplified by this remote and isolated location.
Back in the 1920s, groundbreaking research in psychology began, and the American psychologist Walter B Cannon published a very important paper where he identified the human response to stress. His paper gave us a phrase we all know: Fight or Flight.
And this was gospel. For about 70 years, most of the subsequent research confirmed his results.
But then, in the 1990s, a different psychologist unwrapped these old ideas. She took a different approach...her name is Shelley E Taylor, and when she analyzed these old studies, she realized something was missing.
There were no women who worked as researchers, and in fact, most of the rats used in the studies were also male.
She wondered. If she were to remount these same experiments, but this time included females, could there be a different result?
And in fact, there was.
Shelly E Taylor published her work in the year 2000. Her research confirmed the third way, an alternative reaction to stress, and she called it Tend and Befriend.
This means that when some of these rats faced stress, they cared for each other instead of fighting. Instead of fleeing, they put the needs of others before their own.
Sam: Can I process this with you? Where are you at with it?
Nina: Yeah. I had a very interesting night tonight because, when Greg came into the kitchen, I was like, …ooh, I know what this decision is, we couldn’t get to Rothera through the channel, we’re going to have to go out onto the open ocean. And I was like: I want to go. I definitely want to vote for Rothera.
And then I heard everyone’s opinions, and I saw Sarah really shaken up. And it really shook me up because I know how strong she is.
And so I'm so glad that she spoke up because I would have felt horrible if I had voted the way that I originally planned to and then found out later how she felt. So, yeah.
Sam: It’s a moment, isn’t it?
Nina: It is a moment. I guess because it’s an emotional decision. Some decisions are emotional. You can’t make every decision based on logic and fact. I had a real issue around a conversation around health. People kept saying physical safety because, to me, I saw a huge mental health issue in a number of people. And I was worried that that wasn’t being recognized. And that to me, that’s an emotional choice.
Sam: Yeah.
Nina: I learned that the things that I want shouldn’t cloud how considered I am in making important leadership decisions in the future.
Sam: Wow. That’s quite a bit to get out of, roughly 45 minutes!
Nina: Look, it’s an accumulation, I think, over time, but it was an epiphany moment, you might say. It’s all right.
Sam: South of the Antarctic Circle.
Nina: Woot!
Ellen Moon in Antarctica - photo credit Oli Sansom
Sam: I went up to bed not knowing what to make of this day, so I sat down and recorded some thoughts.
Sam: Oh my goodness! So today, upon the Bridge, I was there, waiting to see if this moment to pass. It’s typically up to the Captain, and Greg, who is the expedition leader for Homeward Bound. They would confer in congregation with the Faculty of Homeward Bound.
But at this point, we had a disconnect because the Captain wanted to go because he had never been there.
And many people wanted a chance to get to this base because it is an unattainable base. It is an exciting base. It is a very, very, very remote base and getting there is an adventure. So the question was 12 hours on open seas, 12-14 hours on the open seas, with modest swells, modest in a sailor terminology, which means seasickness, which means a nasty, difficult time.
And for some reason that I don’t fully comprehend, Fabian decided to put it to a vote to make a collective decision. Do we venture out to the seas or turn around and go back the way we came, safe and secure.
And as you can imagine, a whole range of opinions came out. And a room that was earlier today, nicely, mostly, unified. Now, less unified.
And it was fascinating because I was right in the middle of all of it. I was there recording what happened in the meeting, I was recording what happened with the Faculty, I was even on the Bridge earlier today.
And after the debacle all happened, I made sure to pull aside a number of people to process and see what kind of insights I could get.
So it was pretty exciting. But it’s also a bit upsetting too because we will wake up tomorrow to a different room and a diverse crowd. And a different vibe. And hopefully, probably, we can iron it out and get past it.
But there’s no question that putting this as a leadership parable, it became a leadership fable. One that has a beginning, a middle, and an end, and it ends with a moral to the story. To be determined, perhaps, tomorrow.
But for now, it’s time to turn this off and actually get some sleep. It’s quite late.
This episode was written, hosted and produced by me, Samantha Hodder.
Sound mix by Kristie Chan
Original music by Podington Bear
Original Theme song by Gabriel Corindia
For this episode, I’d like the thank:
Dr. Adriana Humans
Dr. Susan Scott
Dr. Merryn Mckinnon
Marshall Cowley
Valerie Sage
Nina Earl
Tune in next week for the final episode of this series.
And if you’re not already receiving our newsletter, please head to the bottom of the page and subscribe, and then I’ll send you one minute of audio love each week.
Thanks for listening.
I’m Samantha Hodder, and This is Our Time.